Where can I test this?

Hello,

I would love to, but I do not fly.
Why?
I’m a maker, i love making things.
I have been thinking about making something that flies, but it s kinda dangerous.
And i would like something simple, cheap, like e-skate but in the air.
Current solutions to fly while feeling outside air, do not appeal me much.

I stuggled with finding a supplier for specific electric motor, and click after click i ended up here this morning.

Openppg is exactly for me.

Where can i try it in Europe?

Thanks

Guessing from your name (fourchette = fork) I would say you’re from france.

In the US you don’t need a license nor even training to fly with a powered paraglider, whereas in most european countries you do!
I am french as well, but live in Germany. Both in France and Germany you do need a license.
You may want to check out the DAGC (direction générale de l’avation civile) or search google for “paramoteur”

If you have a license, and you are willing to come to germany, I may let you test the OpenPPG once I have it :slight_smile:

Hi Etienne and Fourchette.

I’m French too, living in France, and currently finalizing Paramotor training.
I already have the ULM licence so it will be only an additional class to add to my ULM licence.

My question is : do you already have checked with DGAC if the OpenPPG concept is possible in France ? From my understanding of the texts, ULM can only be equiped with 1 motor, and having 4 motors could avoid OpenPPG to be recognized as an ULM in France.

If it is the case it would be very disapointing as this project represent a real improvement on electrical paramotors.

Salut @looloo06

up to this point, I haven’t checked any further regarding permission/certification.
The Dudek Harness is certified, my wing (Nova Prion) is certified - and these two in connection is what keeps me flying. The OpenPPG is just the propulsion.

I am pretty happy with my flying machine :slight_smile:

If it was me I’d just fly it and hope not to get questioned by the Authorities. Your local policeman is very unlikely to be well versed in air law. If I was challenged however my argument would go something like this:

The ULM prohibition is clearly aimed at multi engine aircraft such as a Gulfstream. This is because some of these aircrafts manoeuvring characteristics are as a result of varying the power output on individual motors. The OpenPPG motors are controlled by a single management system and throttle. The four motors can not be thought of as seperate any more than the four pistons within a Rorex aero engine.

That’s my two cents :slight_smile:

Paul

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I like @paul_oz explanation. Like he said it’s all functioning as one thrust system/vector. Each motor is electronically guaranteed to receive the same throttle signal.

Ha ha ha… that one is good, and I can definitely confirm it.

In Germany we have the law (probably being the only country in the world) that even with a foot launched paramotor, that needs, with a little bit of wind, three to five steps to take off, we need to take off and land at an authorized airport.

very few of the paramotorists in Germany do it, they just take off and land in open fields, where no-one is bothered.
I have had the case where policemen were watching me, having no clue that I even wasn’t allowed to take off.

extremely unlikely that they will question your gear.

I am flying for two years now, many times, with or without motor, and I have never even been asked to show my license! :slight_smile:

(n Bassano/Italy they ask you three times a day if you have Flycard which you buy to have permission to take off and land, but I was never asked for my license.

The great thing about the Bassano fly card etienne is there’s no date on it, just your ID photo. Which meant that when I went to Bali and both my UK and Aussie licences had expired I showed my fly card and they issued me a current Indonesian paragliding licence! (For a fee of about $40US)

Hello everybody,

Sorry for very late reply.
Yes, I doubt anyone would check the fact that the paramotor has 4 motors instead of only one (except maybe my instructor…). But in case of an accident, I also doubt insurances will cover due to the fact that the 4 motors are not allowed as ULM in France.
I think I will ask FPLUM (French ULM federation) if there could be some adaptation of the law for such a great paramotor project. Linked to ecological and environmental aspects, it could maybe be taken into account and officially be allowed or even pushed by the federation.

Can’t have 4 motors in France - only 1 for ULM

Hello everybody, first of all I’d like to introduce myself. I’m Michael from Germany and fly paragliders for 20 years now. I‘ve always been interested in ppgs but till now it always has been too expensive, too loud, no place where you can fly due to noise, etc.
This project here is the thing for me, I think.
How long are the waiting times until you can buy one.
@ etienne : Do you know how it works with customs in Germany if you have it shipped from the US?

Thanks for your answers

Hi, the following things should you please note. in germany it is a prerequisite to have a motor ppg license. and depending on which drive it is a liability insurance is also necessary and prerequisite for UL flies. through the loud noise you will get attention very quickly in the population. then there will be many who ask “is that allowed”. as long as it’s simple people it’s not a problem. as soon as hunters, nature conservationists or civil servants are involved, it can be very problematic. just as a well-intentioned note. Because many officials and hunters know the aviation laws very well in Germany.

@bratwurst is a well known Tinker and Maker in the electric Paramotor space both in Germany and Austria, if I may say so. while I admire your work very much, Thomas, and I hope to meet you in person some time down the road, I also have to say that it’s not a secret that you harshly criticise the OpenPPG project.
Thomas, if I did get this wrong, my apologies.

@Michael where are you based? I am located in northern Germany near Bielefeld and Hannover.
It’s correct that the DHV project “electric climb aid” (Elektro Aufstiegshilfe) sort of never took off in Germany. It would also be required that the “electric climb aid” has a single, folding propeller to fall under the rules of the “electric climb aid”
So Bratwurst is right that you’ll need a Paramotor license (SPL-UL = Sports Pilots License - Ultra Light)

The customs import works like that:
The shipment will most likely get “taken hostage” by the nearest customs office. They will notify you with a letter that they have a package for you.
You will then have to print an invoice/order confirmation and a proof of payment, and show that to the customs agent. They will then charge you:

  • X % import duties
  • and 19% VAT

I got lucky, because the Parcel Service messed up. They must have mistakenly missed the big red sticker on the box, that this parcel is NOT to be handed out to the customer but to be sent to the customs office. They did deliver it right to me, and I somehow must have +cough+ forgotten to notify the customs office myself afterwards.
So no import duties and no VAT for me.

What sort of import duties are charged depends on how you classify the electric paramotor and which customs tariff number you assign to it.

this one would probably work: https://www.zolltarifnummern.de/2019/88
more precisely https://www.zolltarifnummern.de/2019/88051010
(Aircraft launching gear and parts thereof )

Checking then on https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/taric_consultation.jsp?Lang=en#
shows me that these goods from the US being imported to Germany will cost 2,7%.

You can also search for other customs tariff numbers that would be cheaper in terms of import duties (the OpenPPG could also be taken for a DIY Kit of whatever… or a DIY Kit of a drone).
Ask Zach and Paul to put that Customs Tariff Number on the Invoice and to attach a copy to the outside of the box into one of these self adhesive transparent envelopes.

Regarding the noise, I respectfully disagree with Bratwurst.
The frequency is high, and a couple hundred meters away, the high frequency noise (high frequency in comparison to the lower frequency of large prop combustion engines) looses energy very quickly, i.e. is not loud anymore.
My whole neighborhood confirms this, they have a good comparison, as they have had the luck to hear both, my combustion engine paramotor and the OpenPPG.

Cheers
Etienne

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One more thought:
I think I remember having read on some website, where they were showing off the “U-Turn Motors Transformer” electric Paramotor, that if the battery does not exceed X kWh of capacity, that it then would also count as a “electric climbing aid” … you may want to investigate that further.

hello, yeah I know you see it with very easy set it and it will surely fit for you where you fly. This is completely right. why not. but please do not forget but always the right truth to mention even if you write in forums. because you know exactly that as a example an “airfield lights” prevails. the controller at the airfield is liable to prosecution if he allows an illegal aircraft to take off.

of course you can classify me as a critic. I refer my statements purely to the laws in Germany. my vision and statements about performance and efficiency are not meant to be evaluated. no, they are facts and pure physics. there are already thousands of postings about e-ppg in all classes in forums and facebook, etc. a lot of experienced developers have long since given up on something to explain. because 99% of people write that did not make a single flight with e-ppg but pretend to be experts and see their own theory as the only truth. one can see experienced people as critics or accept help from them. what experienced people do but never do is just to make sure it reads well: twisting the truth or giving false information. regards

Thank you for your detailed information.
I‘m located in Bavaria near Munich. I know about the problems with licensing and that you have to use an airport for powered paragliders. In my opinion it makes absolutely no sense to do so because you will be an obstacle for all other „normal“ aircraft in the pattern. But it’s German law.
Nevertheless it’s too fascinating. I have connections to a small private airfield, where I could fly.
I know about the customs regulation… and was thinking that you maybe have a „ workaround“ for that.
How did you get the batteries to Germany ? According to my research it’s kind of hard to buy some with this power and endurance.
Regards

I built my own battery pack with Lithium Ion 18650 Cells. There is a lengthy and detailed thread on my build process.
I purchased the 18650 cells online, shipped with UPS, Duties already paid (UPS took care of the customs clearance).
a little more expensive in shipping, though

hello michael, many e-pilots in europe buy their single cells here:https://www.nkon.nl/de/rechargeable/21700-20700-size/samsung-inr21700-40t-4000mah-30a.html

I myself fly only by new packs the 21700 types because they hold much more stress under load than the 18650 . in weight, it is identical. You can always inquire with this company by mail and write your amount that you want to buy. You will surely get a good offer. I’ve already bought about 5000 cells there for me and friends (also for e-foils, ebike etc.) the cells are there always 100% original. before I used the 21700 size I had the sony vtc 5 and 6 in use. (even today) I have the LG cells in the thermal support inside. for classic e-ppg these are not optimal because they are around 5-7 degrees hotter than the sony cells at the same load. The delivery nkon is very fast and smooth. to the battery construction you can yes as etinne already mentioned has its tread watch. regards

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