Are car jump starters viable?

I see many models listed online which report supporting current draw up to thousands of Amps and mAh/$ + competitive with Bonkas. For example:

There are others with similar stats.

I am not too familiar with batteries so cannot quite figure out why these haven’t made their way onto Battery Comparison sheet. My guess is that it has something to do with the fact that I cannot find “C” rating anywhere / it is not meant for continuous high current discharge?

Looking forward to learning more :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

I got one for starting my Simonini 202 - have not tried it yet - but they would not be cost effective or practical for making a pack out of. The are design for short power boost only, not prolonged running.
Cheers

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They are also 12 volt, so 3s equivalent. You would need 4 in series to get the equivalent of 2 bonkas for the 12s systems.

Hooking the bonkas up in series is the most stressfull part for me. I did once connect the wrong negative and positive… I do my battery connections in quiet now…

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Yikes! :open_mouth: :flushed:

Yeah flying 8 batteries is a lot of plugging and unplugging. Worst I’ve done was plug one into the charger backwards (I’ve finally put XT150s on the chargers so that can’t happen again). The charger just beeped at me and I felt stupid. I’m acutely aware that when connecting a pair of Bonkas in series there is no way, other than diligence, to prevent inadvertently dead shorting a battery*. And every time I fly there are 4 series connections to make. I pair them up on the bench in the garage before I go out to the field.

*I guess an alternative would be 12S chargers so I could leave the series pairs connected all the time. Hmm… not possible to series connect a pair of 6S chargers is it?

Ya that’s one of the biggest convenient/ease of use things going from the X4 to the Sp140, it was annoying plugin in the connectors for flying and charging, just takes more time with the X4.

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Common Paul, get us one of those nice 4k packs wired for 50V. Please? :grinning:

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I’ve got my batteries now paired and the wires labelled for the series connections. There is only one “green” banded positive and negative in the group of 8 so they always go together. There are 4 different colour bands so as long as I put the right colours together, I shouldn’t have any more issues… Here’s hoping.

Is it possible to use SP140 battery in X4? I think I’ve read somewhere that SP140 battery operates at 90 volts whereas X4 is designed to run at around 48 volts: is it possible to step this down?

I know this is a dead horse, but I am still on the fence about electric. I love everything I’ve read about the X4 but $1800 per ~45 minute flight is a little brutal:

~$4000 for paramotor + ~$2000 for batteries means I’m paying a little less than $6000 for a machine capable of flights less than an hour. If SP140 battery could be used it would be about the same cost but at least better ease-of-use.

If batteries were half the cost s.t. I could attain hourlong flights from $1000 of batteries, I’d be much more convinced. Part of me wants to buy the X4 in anticipation of such a halvening within 5 years XD but that is probably optimistic.

Even with the quality-of-life enhancements of using an electric machine, it is a hard sell when compared to listings at my local club: for example, I am currently weighing X4 against a $3500 gas machine with 6 hours which is ready to fly, wing included. Once again, I can definitely appreciate all of the benefits of electric (and the X4 specifically), especially as someone who wants to minimize luggage during travels. But electric does not even come close in terms of dollars per second flying: an electric and gas paramotor will both likely die before the cost of the battery is met by the cost of gasoline.

Ya if you can get a good motor and a wing for $3500 I would do that, in fact if it’s actually a good wing and motor please send the link I would like to buy it.

I guess if you are comparing used gas motors to new electric motors and you plan to only put around 10hr a year or something on it then ya per hour cost is not very good.

But I think you have to compare new Eppg to new Gasppg to make a comparison right?

And if you are paying $1800 for each 45min flight ya that not a good deal. The cool thing is you can recharge that battery and use hundreds to thousands of hours over and over again for just less then 50 cents per flight. I’m assuming your not saying $1800 per each flight :wink:

And also it’s not $1800 per 4kwh pack if you own or are buying an Sp140 it’s $400 less. We just half to make the default price higher because non PPG users were buying packs and I’d like to keep batteries in stock in a low price for openppg users. A coupon will be given if you’re an open PPG customer.

As far as using the Sp140 battery in the X4 the voltages are different, but I’m not against making an li-ion pack for the X4, it’s just not in the current roadmap. So no promises there.

I think the X4 has good potential to be really low cost, light option design for shorter flights where the Sp is designed for large power long flight times. The X4 will probably get a redesign also with a new battery option. They would come together.

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Ya if you can get a good motor and a wing for $3500 I would do that, in fact if it’s actually a good wing and motor please send the link I would like to buy it.

not sure I can generate a link since I just viewed it in person during an extended training weekend: I reached out to my instructor for details on the engine and wing since I am new to this and am unable to remember exact model :sweat_smile:

I guess if you are comparing used gas motors to new electric motors and you plan to only put around 10hr a year or something on it then ya per hour cost is not very good. But I think you have to compare new Eppg to new Gasppg to make a comparison right?

that’s completely fair: if I were comparing new electric to new gas then you are right that electric is competitive. I think I resorted to comparing new electric to used gas because there isn’t a big used electric market: I haven’t been able to find any listings outside of this forum. I wonder if there is market for used LiPos somewhere, where one could purchase heavily discounted batteries at the risk of them underperforming due to usage history? I imagine this is risky purchases

And if you are paying $1800 for each 45min flight ya that not a good deal. The cool thing is you can recharge that battery and use hundreds to thousands of hours over and over again for just less then 50 cents per flight. I’m assuming your not saying $1800 per each flight

haha, what I meant was “$1800 for a machine that can fly 45 minutes per session”.
but let’s say electric has higher initial investment (only necessarily true when comparing to used gas, which would be my alternative). this higher expense will be partially mitigated by the fact that recharging a battery is much cheaper than burning gas; however, a pilot will probably experience total system failure prior to the point at which purchasing and flying a new electric ppg has become cheaper than purchasing and flying a used gas ppg.

And also it’s not $1800 per 4kwh pack if you own or are buying an Sp140 it’s $400 less. We just half to make the default price higher because non PPG users were buying packs and I’d like to keep batteries in stock in a low price for openppg users. A coupon will be given if you’re an open PPG customer.

I saw the note about reduced price if you own an SP140 but it did not read to apply if you own an X4 which makes sense if they are incompatible. $1400 for hour long flight time is not too bad: OpenPPG battery comparison sheet lists $1800 of bonka batteries to yield ~45 minutes so this is definitely competitive, but I also believe I have read that for some reasons the SP140 is better suited for higher flight times even aside from battery capacity.

As far as using the Sp140 battery in the X4 the voltages are different, but I’m not against making an li-ion pack for the X4, it’s just not in the current roadmap. So no promises there.

I think I have read somewhere on this forum about people opening Tesla packs and reassembling so as to modify voltage of the pack; however, I am definitely not sufficiently experienced to comment or experiment with this :smiley:

I think the X4 has good potential to be really low cost, light option design for shorter flights where the Sp is designed for large power long flight times. The X4 will probably get a redesign also with a new battery option. They would come together.

yup, this is mostly why I am torn between X4 and gas powered. I love the idea of folding up the unit and packing it into my car without gas fumes, having to carry liquids, having to mix oil, etc. And most of the time I’d be flying would just be up to 30 minute flights in scenic areas to capture some video while traveling, as opposed to cross countries or long flights just for the sake of being up in the air for long periods of time.

Based on this, I pretty much just want ~30 minute flights for as cheap as possible, potentially with the option of buying multiple packs so I could do back-to-back flights instead of extended single flight. This is why I ask about golf cart batteries on another post, since battery comparison sheet lists them as pretty heavy and unable to be chained but incredibly cheap (relative to other batteries) to yield a ~25 minute flight.

I assume this is all speculative, so I don’t figure you have any timeframe or estimate for this “probably get a redesign with a new battery option”? Like I’ve said, I’m currently considering what I want to purchase as my first unit. And as you might be able to tell, perhaps I am putting too much thought into it :sweat_smile: but I figure a wise purchase will last a long time and not need to be replaced for years.

Also for both gas and electric “dying” before the life of the battery can be used. I really don’t think so. Sure ya gas motors will need to be rebuilt a few times before the battery would need to be replaced on a SP unit. There is nothing from stoping all the comments from ruining for a 1000hr plus. Most likely the frame of the SP units would be banged up and needing replace if any component would need to be fixed.

But that’s why I want to make the frame low cost, robust enough that it isn’t a big cost and not really a thought. And if a experience pilot is the one flying I don’t see why a 1000hr plus isn’t totally doable.

Right now I have around 150hr on my unit/battery. Keep it logged on the controller. Really the biggest reason why 1000hr is hard to hit is it just takes so much time to do. Iv thought about just taking my unit rn and just running it to 1000hr just to show it can. It just takes to much time. I also would what to do the exercises with just one battery (so same unit same battery)

Let’s say I get 2 runs a day( 1hr to run 4hr to charge another 1hr run and then another 4hr charge so 10hrs a day… maybe I could fit another run in there and charge over night) So doing that once a day for a full year no stop every day that’s only 730hr so I would have to do it for about another half a year.

I kinda wana do it and maybe set up a low bandwidth live stream cuz the internet cost would be more than my electrical cost :joy:

Or I could fly twice a day for two hours but thats really hard to do every day with no breaks. Most people rarely fly ever week on average in a year.

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FWIW when I said electric unit would die before you were able to reap cost benefits of rechargable battery over gas consumption I was thinking of the X4 and comparing it in my head to lifespan of multicopter motors; however, I am impressed that you have hit 150hr on the SP without needing to replace any components aside from maybe frame. I would think the motors would give out after a couple hundred hours. Also, I imagine LiPo batteries have a shorter lifespan than Lithium Ion in SP battery.

Such a test would definitely be cool and productive but you are right that it would be difficult to pull off: I definitely can’t promise I would watch it end-to-end :laughing: as I spend more time training I realize that most people who paramotor do not do it every chance they get but instead opt to wait patiently for ideal conditions. it would also be interesting to see, e.g. how the life of the battery changed over time of 1000 hours of usage. I bet that’s in the top 1% of gas motors too: I think a unit enduring that long would be pretty remarkable.

Ya if you are looking for longer flight time the SP140 is the better option over the X4 as it’s just more efficient.

If you are just looking for 1/2 flights the 2.2kwh battery might be the best for you. That brings the ready to fly Sp140 price out of the box to $6700. And extra batteries are $995.

So that might be the better option for you. It is also lighter weight of course.

Might work on a lower cost Sp140 pack that use lower capacity cells but the whole batteries cost would come down quite a bit. Right now we use the highest quality cells we can find but that also makes the cost higher of course.

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how do you compare the portability of the SP140 and the X4? I have seen the X4 broken down and packed up via a couple of youtube videos. But I have not seen any similar such demonstrations of packing an SP140: I assume it is about the same size as a gas-powered unit? Like i’ve said, portability (packed dimensions) is one of my top priorities alongside cost. i don’t care as much about extended flight times nor weight. the idea that the X4 is substantially more portable is one of the primary reasons I am leaning toward it over the SP140: cost is also a factor but honestly cost isn’t too different between the two electric units if you aim to achieve the same flight times.

it would be nice to have dimensions for collapsed X4 as well as a side-by-side comparison of SP140 vs X4 when collapsed.

Once both are broken down they are similar sized, the X4 just takes a bit less time to do so because they props can stay on. They Sp140 you do have to take the prop off, but it really only adds a minuet or so to unbolt it.

So as far as difference it time to breakdown for transport to put if your car seat or trunk its takes about 3 mints or so for the X4 and about 4-5mins for the Sp140 if your taking your time doing it. Ill make a video on transport of the Sp140 for sure some point soon.

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A new version of the X4 with proper battery pack would be sweet esp if they can go closer to the 1hr mark, but even 40 min would be cool. I briefly looked at the current X$ sometime ago and the lipos all janky like strapped together was a turn off, if only for the reason of having to charge a bunch of them later. SP140 nails it; plug and forget.
I absolutely love the idea of easily breaking the motor down to fit in the back seat of a car!

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The problem with the X4 is that(if I remember right) it takes something like 5.5kw on an efficient wing to stay in the air. On the other hand the sp140 takes about 3.75kw. This means that an X4 with a battery equivalent in energy to the sp140 would only fly for about 40 minutes.

The big problem is that the four 22" props on the X4 have the same sweep area as a single 44" prop. What the X4 really needs is something closer to 26 or 27 inch props which would have an equivalent sweep area to a 52 and 54 inch prop respectively. I have not run the numbers, but I believe if done right the bigger props with a 4kWh battery could get the X4 closer to 50 or maybe 55 minutes. The downside is that the X4 would need to be very big to fit those props.

Dang great idea. (Kicks self)
I’m going to get some not black or red shrink wrap!

This was the deciding factor for me. I did not want to become an amateur two stroke mechanic. I fly from a local park which might draw some negative attention if I was firing up a big chainsaw motor around breakfast or supper time.

With the X4 I have the most convenient, easy to use, safest, most reliable, flying machine available when I bought it. Arguably it still is. For me thats a good trade for not being able to fly for more than 20-30 minutes. My bladder doesn’t last 3 hours anyways (TMI?) :smiley:

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I would estimate only 5% or less of the PPG and Microlight Trike pilots out there go up for more than 1 hr.
You get up early in the morning or arrive late in the day to catch the dead or calm air for a nice flight. Take into account time to set up and put away. You get up and enjoy the sites for 20 to 40 minutes and then come down. Here, if I want to see different places I can drive 40 mins to another local strip in the other direction and go up for another 40 mins and enjoy the sites there.

In five years when we have the next level of battery with more power density or local airstrips have fast charging​:rofl: we will be able to fly between them.:+1:
Cheers

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